Madeleine Penfold: Making the Pictures She Longed to See as a Girl
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In this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast, host Angela Nicholson speaks to Madeleine Penfold, a photographer and director whose work champions representation, community and social change. Through the lens of sport, Mads tells stories that matter, highlighting people and voices often overlooked in mainstream media.
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Growing up in Manchester, Mads never saw anyone in the media who reflected her identity or ambitions. As a self-described tomboy, she felt out of place and pressured to dim her true self. That early feeling of invisibility became the driving force behind her photography. After discovering her love for the camera in her teens and nurturing her passion through university, she made a promise to herself: if she was going to pursue photography seriously, it would be to create a visual world that she longed to see as a girl.
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Though she studied business and brand management, Mads used her spare time to explore photography, eventually finding herself on a summer camp in New York, teaching film and photography. That experience became a turning point. She witnessed the way media shaped confidence in young people and decided to commit to creating imagery with purpose.
Mads shares how she moved from event and nightclub photography to working with global sports brands, eventually being hired to shoot footballers like Roberto Firmino and later Real Madrid and Bayern Munich. But it wasn’t until she started photographing women’s football that she truly felt her work aligned with her purpose. From asking if Manchester United even had a women’s team, to becoming a key part of the visual rise of the Lionesses, Mads has helped shift the narrative in women’s sport.
She speaks candidly about the importance of representation, building trust with athletes and why inclusivity must extend behind the camera as well as in front of it. Her passion for making meaningful work, especially with young athletes and underrepresented communities, is both inspiring and thought-provoking.
For Mads, photography is more than a job, it’s a platform for change. This episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to use their camera to tell powerful, authentic stories.
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Episode Transcript
Mads (00:00)
I think that people with influence, if they can use that influence for good, social good, then they can make immense change. So if I get...
campaign brought to me that is for a good cause then that really like lights me up and gets me excited.
Angela (00:15)
Hello and welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I speak to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now.
Angela (00:30)
Our guest today is Madeleine Penfold, a photographer and director who uses sport to tell stories about people, community and social change. Her collaborative approach champions representation and gives a platform to voices that deserve to be heard.
Angela (00:45)
Hi, Mads, thanks so much for joining me on the She Clicks Women in Photography podcast today. It's great to see you.
Mads (00:50)
Thanks so much for having me. I'm a big fan. So yeah, really happy to be here.
Angela (00:53)
thank you.
Brilliant, thank you very much. So you've said before that when you were growing up, you didn't see people who reflected your ambitions in mainstream media. What were your ambitions at that time?
Mads (01:05)
It wasn't so much ambitions, it was more that when I was growing up, I felt like a massive tomboy. I was a massive tomboy. And when I looked at what it meant to be a girl or what it meant to be a teenage girl or woman, I didn't see so many like kick-ass kind of girls that weren't looking super pretty or dressed in dresses. And I kind of wanted to play football with the boys or go and build dens or get my hands dirty.
So apart from a few characters in action movies that were women that did get their hands dirty, apart from that mainstream media kind of told me that it wasn't okay to be a tomboy and that I should be girly and grow up and say less and marry a boy. So that's what I mean when I say mainstream media didn't reflect who I felt I was, which meant that I didn't really grow up with confidence.
Angela (01:54)
Yeah.
Mads (01:58)
In myself, it was more like, I have to dim this side of me down.
Angela (02:02)
Yeah. So how did you get through that? How did you discover yourself?
Mads (02:07)
God, that is, that is a big question. How did I discover myself? I'm going to take a minute to think about that. Yeah, it was definitely a journey. I think probably finding a load of other people who didn't fit in throughout the teenage years. and that kind of involved a lot of like exploration and maybe partying and didn't do like the traditional things that like good kids did, but it was like.
Angela (02:11)
or maybe liberate yourself.
Yeah.
Mads (02:31)
the place where the kids met who perhaps didn't feel like they fit in. So yeah, I think a bit of that. And then I kind of realized that I was gay when I was like 15, 16, and then kind of found a bit more of a tribe at 17, 18. Luckily, like grew up in Manchester, which is a town that is very open and very accepting and has a gay village. So I remember discovering that when I was 15, 16.
Although my ID will tell you that I was 18. Discovering that and kind of feeling like, oh my god, there is a whole nother world here and there's another way to live. Unfortunately, well, fortunately, it's great that I discovered that, but unfortunately, what can happen in those spaces is that it also comes with a lot of sort of bad behaviors that can happen when you are within a group of people who have been suppressed. I probably...
Angela (03:01)
Ha
Mads (03:27)
had as many good experiences as I did like bad experiences as well. But then it was really going to university that I first found like a tribe of people who felt really like they wanted the best for me and they didn't really care who I was. They were just like good people and they perhaps also didn't fit in but they had self-acceptance and therefore they accepted me and you know we were all together studying and learning and partying of course.
But that really felt like a time where I was like away from everything in my youth youth and was sort of like stepping into a place of like, ⁓ everyone here is kind of different and you know, it's super multicultural as well when you go to university. yeah, felt like I fit in.
Angela (04:10)
think that is one of the biggest benefits of going to university is suddenly because everybody is uprooted from home and they haven't got their parents with them and they're trying to find out who they are, make new friends and it's just like the slate is wiped clean. You're discovering people and you start to click with some people. I've got some great friends who I met when I went to university and we still meet up on a regular basis.
Mads (04:32)
Yeah, totally. I still have my uni friends and they're like my soul people. They're amazing. And yeah, you put it really well. Everyone is on a self-discovery mission at university, it was a good period.
Angela (04:47)
Good. And how did you, were you actually studying photography at that time?
Mads (04:51)
No, I've never studied photography. I went to university and did a business course actually, like a creative business course. It was called advertising management and brand management at Manchester Metropolitan Business School. And the reason I took that course is because no one in my family went to uni. And I remember saying to my mum, coming home one day from college, because the talk was about going to universities, and one day coming home and saying to my mum, I think I'm going to go to uni. And she was like, really? It's a lot of money.
Angela (04:53)
Okay.
Mads (05:20)
Are you sure you want to go? And she kind of, I mean, my instant reaction to that was like, you shouldn't discourage me. Like I want to progress and all these things, I think things like when your parents say things or sort of authority figures say things, it does almost plant a seed. So it made me want to go to university, but approach it with caution. And my, my reason for studying business was because I really want to make sure that I come out of this degree and ensure that I can get a job.
and I can't trust that studying an arts or creative based degree is going to guarantee me that. And I didn't really feel like I had anything to fall back on. And I don't regret that decision. I regret that I didn't feel comfortable or secure enough to go and study something creative based. But I actually loved my degree. I loved the people that I met and I was doing photography in university just on the side as like a hobby and a passion project.
Angela (05:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (06:13)
I've been photographing since I was like 15, 14, 15 and it was always like my means of exploration and I was super curious and me having this camera allowed me to go into spaces that I perhaps shouldn't have been in or wouldn't have traditionally been in. So photography was something that I was already practicing but studying advertising and branding as well as doing photography it just meant that everything I was learning in uni I was like applying to photography and I was like okay why do people use photography for storytelling?
Why do certain people follow brands? Why do brands speak in a certain way? So it was kind of like the business side of my brain was then matching with the creative side of my brain, which felt for me very intuitive rather than something that I wanted to go and study for three years.
Angela (06:58)
It does sound like a really good degree for what you're doing now as well. mean, everything you just said, I could just picture some of your images and think, yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Mads (07:06)
Yeah, yeah, I think it has helped. I think it means that I can understand when I, because a lot of the work that I do is commercial, that's how I earn a living. I love photography and documentary style. I'm sure we'll get onto the ins and outs of photography in a little bit, but it has made me understand that when I'm getting a commission from a commercial client, they have a need to create imagery in a way.
that speaks to their audience or in a way that is gonna speak to a different audience or surprise somebody. So it was a lot about demographics and consumer behavior and why things work, why things don't work. So yeah, I think it possibly has helped me.
Angela (07:49)
And how did you go from then leaving university with your degree to actually working as a photographer?
Mads (07:55)
It's a great question. is a very random and squiggly line. So when I got to the very final stages of my degree, so many of my peers were like, I'm gonna go and be an account manager at whatever company. I'm gonna go and work in marketing. I'm gonna basically be like someone who wears a suit, who goes to an office, who says they have a creative job, but you know, they're working on the strategy side of things in an office. And I just still did not feel like that was me. I think ultimately like, I still felt like that.
little kid who was a tomboy who really didn't fit in, still wanted to play in the dirt and go, if everyone's going right, I want to go left. It probably also doesn't help that I'm a middle child that I feel that way. Typical middle child psychology. So anyway, I got to the end of my degree and I was like, oh my God, I have no idea what I want to do. Like my worst fears are coming true. I did this degree feeling like I had come out of it and be like, I know I can get a job and earn good money. But in fact, I was coming to the end of degree and I was thinking,
I've absolutely loved the people I've met. I've loved the photography side of things that I've done on the side, but I still do not feel like I want to go and do any of the jobs that my peers are doing. So I thought I need to take a break. I need to leave. To your point earlier, I need to go and find a clean slate and go and rediscover what I want to do with all the things that I've learned over the last three years. And there was a girl at my uni, he was talking about going to teach on a summer camp.
and she said that every year she goes and teaches on a summer camp and you can go to a summer camp and they'll pay you and you can be there for two months and you get a month of travel on your visa. So I looked into it and I found this camp in upstate New York where I could teach film and photography to young people aged like four to 16 years old and I go teach, I go get paid, I could be there for two months and then I get a month of travel. And I was like, well, if I really look inside my heart, I want to be a photographer in like New York City. That was the dream. So.
The closest I could get to that, with my lack of contacts at the time, was going to work on a summer camp in America. before we'd even got to graduation, obviously I finished my degree, and I'm pretty sure the week after we graduated, I was on a plane to New York and I went there for two months. And it was there that kind of really solidified what I wanted to do. And the reason was, I was teaching young people and I could see the impact that...
feeling different would have on young people. So like, I would notice that the really, really young ones would like give every single class their everything. I was one of the photographers, right? I was in a team of five, there was like two videographers and three photographers and we all came together and the pressure on us was immense because we had to capture a photo of every kid every day, there's thousands of kids. We had to create a 30 minute film at the end of each week. So it was like bootcamp for photographers, videographers.
Angela (10:37)
Well.
Mads (10:42)
But as the photographer you're out every day and you're going to all the corners of camp and you're seeing these kids in every single like lesson and activity and yeah I noticed that the younger kids would kind of give give their energy and effort to everything like they had no awareness of I should or shouldn't be a certain way and then when I would go to the classes where the girls and guys were maybe like 10, 9, 10, 11, 12 you're starting to see the self-consciousness come in and like
and the hierarchical and like the cliques that form. And I could sort of see the impact that being pretty or being popular or fitting in would have. And then the kids that would kind of turn away from that and also how influenced young people were by media. Like they were obsessed with celebrities and they all wanted Starbucks and just all these things. Anyway, I think that kind of really for the first time ever.
reflected back perhaps what I had been through as a young person and I thought of course the outside world which comes to us through film and imagery and posters and media essentially shows us how we should or shouldn't show up in the world and whether or not we're accepted and whether or not we're seen. So I was seeing all these young people feeling confident or not feeling confident based on whether or not they looked like people that...
had influence, whether that was their peers or celebrities. So anyway, finished summer camp, had an amazing time, also really honed my skills, like as an editor, as a photographer, working under pressure, as a videographer, working within a team. But I remember going to Times Square when we'd finished camp and looking up all the advertisements. I don't know if you've been to Times Square, it is like a universe of ads. There's like ads everywhere. It's kind of amazing and scary, but like video ads, photography everywhere.
I remember standing in the middle of Times Square and looking around and just seeing this like mass influence of messages and they were all like, you should be pretty, you should be thin, you should be strong, you should be the best, you should have lip filler, you should just, all of these like kind of unrealistic beauty ideals and I thought, ah, there's nothing here that really celebrates difference or I don't know, anything that's not like just aesthetic gains.
So I came back from that trip and I made a promise to myself that if I'm really gonna give this photography thing a go, because I also absolutely loved two months of doing film and photography, it was hard work but I loved it, I thought if I'm really gonna give this a go, I wanna make sure that the images that I'm making make a difference and create a visual landscape that I wish I had when I was younger.
So I did that and I developed a really strong why of like why I wanna do what I'm doing and then I just followed that and it definitely wasn't like, then I stepped into an assisting role and then I stepped into being a photographer. It was like I had to take any job in a creative agency that I could. My first job was putting windows and doors into alphabetical order for three months. It was horrible, but that got me a job then at a production company, which I joined as a digital producer.
Again, nothing to do with photography, but on the side I was still doing my photography with events and nightclubs and DJs. I was still in Manchester. Manchester's got a massive music scene, I was shooting that whole scene, for anyone that does events, whether it's music or sports, it's such a brilliant place to practise being a photographer because the environment that you're in is always changing, and you can just shoot, shoot, shoot, and realise what does work and doesn't work.
So yeah, worked at a studio as a digital producer and then sort of worked my way up to being a studio manager. And because I was working for a production company, I was in a world where I was starting to understand what a commercial director did and why they would hire in photographers and choose certain photographers and what clients needed and how to write a treatment and how to create a budget.
for anyone listening that is at the very early stages of their photography career and wants to figure out how to get into it. And I also ask my assistants this question for when I meet young people who want to get into it or early career stage people. And everybody says studio is a really good route. I'm so sure there's other routes and it's not the only way, but for me and my group of assistants, they will all say that working in a studio is just a brilliant way to...
throw yourself in, learn everything. It will be hard and you'll work crazy hours unless it's changed. But it's, yeah, probably not. But it's good. It's like good to get that work ethic behind you and just like see everything. And I think a job like photography, similar to so many others, like it's so hard work and so uncertain that you really have to love it to be able to keep fighting and keep pushing. And yeah, just.
Angela (15:17)
Probably not.
Mads (15:37)
Being in a studio, you'll see it all.
Angela (15:40)
And how did you get into sports photography?
Mads (15:43)
really by chance, really like accidentally, which is probably very frustrating for people, if anyone's listening, who like really intentionally wants to get there. So at that studio that I was working at, it's called Foundry Film Studios in Manchester, still exists today. One of my colleagues was really good friends with these two guys who worked for a sports retail company.
They were based in Spain, but they were coming to the UK to do a shoot with Roberto Firmino, was a Liverpool football player at Liverpool at the time. And they needed a photographer. So my friend put my name forward and was like, hey, like I work with Mads and she shoots like her portfolio was a lot of like DJs and music, but she's done some tests in the studio as well to really help that I could use the studio as a place to do my own tests. Anyway, these two guys, Sam and James were like, yeah, she looks cool.
Why don't you, yeah, come on board. And I remember on that day thinking, like, I put my name in the hat, but I remember thinking, I've got nothing to lose. And I wasn't really bothered about the outcome either. Little did I know that that shoot would be the shoot that would like really change the trajectory of my life, I guess, because I don't see how I would be doing it otherwise.
So I basically went to the shoot with Roberto Firmino and took some pictures of him and it was a crazy day because I don't know if you've ever spoke to any sports photographers or photographed an athlete yourself but a lot of the time what can happen is the brand will only get access to this player for like two hours so they'll invite a number of photographers, number of videographers, basically a number of content crews and everybody gets their like 15 minutes with the player.
me and my crew arrived and it was all these other crews and I was just like, my God, this is like Disneyland for me. They've flown a photographer in from New York, like look at his set. Then there was this other guy from LA, like look at his set. was just, yeah, it was like Disneyland for being a photographer because there were so many incredible sets everywhere. And yeah, the player Roberto arrived at my set and we just had fun. We just had loads of fun. Like I didn't have a huge set up and I think now looking back.
Angela (17:49)
Yeah.
Mads (17:51)
the low keyness of our set and the fact that I just, you know, he couldn't speak English, I couldn't speak Portuguese. I just kind of held up a football boot and showed him what I wanted him to do. And then he'd do it back. And I just got these shots of him like laughing, which the guys thought was really authentic and natural. So they, yeah, I left that shoot thinking I might not ever see them again. I have no idea how I did. I probably did a terrible job. But then they got back in touch and they were like,
Angela (18:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mads (18:19)
Hey, it was so great to work with you. Do you want to come and shoot Real Madrid next week? We're going to go to Madrid." And then after that, it was like, hey, we need to go shoot Munich now. Do you want to come to shoot Bayern Munich? So it just snowballed from there. Before I knew it, I was starting to develop a portfolio working with football players.
Angela (18:35)
fantastic, I guess one of the things you demonstrated there was that you don't need a massive amount of support, you you're not going to be that difficult to manage because you just turn up and you interact with the player or the person, the talent and you get the photos they need.
Mads (18:50)
Yeah, exactly. And I think that was the point of difference. I think being the underdog in those early years was my thing and kind of really helped. And also the people that I was shooting for was like an e-retailer. So we were never the most important ones. We were never the major brand. And when you don't have all the, like a big elaborate set up around you and lots of eyes on set, it means that you can engage with your subject in a much more like relaxed and authentic way. And if you can just like,
mentally put yourself in the position of the football player for a minute. Imagine you're going from like a huge set with loads of people, bam, snap, snap, snap. Then you go to the next set, loads of lights, loads of people, this is what we're gonna do, bam, bam, snap, snap, snap. It's really intense. And then if you, you know, you go to the corner of a studio, there's a couple of guys who, they could speak Portuguese, so automatically you feel more comfortable because someone's speaking your native language. And then there's someone else who just has this like little camera, one light. There's not really any clients around.
I think automatically like you just feel more at ease and those were the images that that that showed in the images it was like a relaxedness rather than a huge setup and neither is right or wrong that was just that became kind of my style at the time because of lack of resource but we'll say it was intentional
Angela (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I think we should. So at what point were you able to start working on, you know, you were very keen to increase the representation of people who weren't represented in mainstream media. At what point were you able to start pushing that forward?
Mads (20:18)
Yeah, okay, I think it's important to say that throughout the early stages of my career, sort of like 22 to 25, I was also still really trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I knew that I wanted to make these images that made a difference, and I'd kind of accidentally landed in this world of starting to footballers, premiership footballers, which was incredible, it involved travel, the guys I was working with I loved.
but it wasn't quite hitting that passion point and why of like, am I creating images that really make a difference and connect with people? What I did start to understand was the power that footballers have to influence and connect with people, especially people across the world that, you know, may not have influential figures or they may not have opportunities to follow certain career paths. But seeing a footballer that also came from the favelas might, well.
usually they'll look up to them as like hope, inspiration, a reason to keep trying. So yeah, it's important to say that I still trying to figure it out and I was like, do I want to be a photographer like that works for National Geographic and goes and does like these really important projects on remote places? Or do I want to work for the United Nations? Like I thought I wanted to do all these things and then I would slowly discover and do my research and then, you know, figure out that I'm not the right person to do that. And why wouldn't you use a local photographer?
Yeah, I ran into some issues with like my wants versus the ethics of that. Which was a hard learning when the kind of veil comes off of what you thought you wanted to do versus whether or not you should actually do it. Anyway, I was working with Manchester United and I hadn't shot a single female footballer and I remember asking my client who worked at United, I said, is there a women's team at Man United?
Angela (21:59)
Right.
Mads (22:05)
I was that clueless that it only occurred to me in that moment on the shoot. And I was like, is there a woman's team here? And she said, yeah, we've actually very recently set one up. And we have to admit we were one of the last teams in the WSL to set one up. Other teams have had them. And I was like, wow, I'm so sorry I never knew that. And then I thought, well, why didn't I ever know that? And it's like, well, because it's really not very visible. And then I was asking, is there a photographer? And she said, no, we don't have a dedicated photographer.
but we definitely like that, that's something we'd like to do. We'd like to start involving our women more in the campaign shoots. And I noticed that what was happening is that these shoots were being set up for the male football players and then the women's team were just sort of like added on the end. So there was no separation or consideration for like, what do we want the women's game to look like? What approach should we take to advertising it, to storytelling around it? How should we work with these female athletes as well? Because when you put...
Ronaldo in front of the camera with no prep versus when you put a young 21 year old who's done five photo shoots in her entire life in front of a camera. There's a very different way you need to manage those things so that everybody feels comfortable. Anyway, so I sort of noticed this like lack of representation, but huge opportunity. So I just asked, you know, I was like, could I come and shoot a game or can I? ⁓
come in and photograph their training or like, you know, I'd love to photograph that person. And I just started to, yeah, build it up from there. And even though I would get knocked back when I would say, could we bring a hair and makeup artist in? Because I'm noticing that the girls have finished training and they're just being like chucked on set with no consideration. Like, can you imagine being in front of the camera with wet hair and you've just finished like two hours of, I don't know, four hours of training? Like probably not gonna feel your best self. So.
I started to like bring stylists on board and bring makeup artists on board and through that was building a bit more of a portfolio in women's sports and it was just like this Pandora's box opened of like my gosh there is a fan base here, there is a game here, it's just that no one really knows about it and then luckily for me you know I can't imagine being a photographer 30, 40, 50 years ago. I know you said that you spoke to someone recently and I know photographers that have
been female photographers that have been shooting the women's game for that many years. But luckily for me, I came at it at a time where I saw what it was before it had any attention. And now over the last few years, it has obviously like exploded. And I have been, I feel like I've been on that journey with them, which has been amazing. Yeah.
Angela (24:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
I've been watching, following the Lionesses since before they were called the Lionesses, really, and the transition that they've gone through. And they always used to look like sporty girls, but now they look like professional athletes. And it's just such an emotional thing to have watched. And the success they've had is just amazing. to document that as well must have been really, really exciting.
Mads (24:53)
Mm.
Yeah, it was incredible. I'm not so much of a live, in the pits photographer, so I don't feel like I have that, you know, I photographed at 2019 games and I photographed at these. I don't have that, but I went to the Euros and I did a lot of work around that commercially. So I'm in a lot of the conversations and rooms around what does this moment mean and who are the fan bases that we're communicating to. So a lot of the strategic conversations and...
Angela (25:13)
Mm.
Mads (25:36)
Yeah, it can be really difficult because I would consider myself a fan now and sometimes when you have a project come to you and you can tell that it's like, we want to align ourselves with this movement because it's hot right now versus the actual integrity of, well, what can this game mean? How can we drive it in a positive way? So yeah, I guess I feel fortunate in the sense that I'm part of conversations that...
will drive it and promote it and talk about it and connect with people in a certain way. But I definitely feel also like incredibly proud and lucky when I go and shoot with one of the lionesses who I've known since she was at United when she was like early 20s and now I see how confident she is in front of camera and how well she's doing and how well she speaks and you know, it's amazing to see like the girls are finally getting the level.
the level care attention to their sport. Everything from on the pitch to off the pitch to the creativity that comes around it.
Angela (26:39)
in terms of photography, do you feel like they get an equal share of the limelight now?
Mads (26:45)
I don't think it's It's a hard one to answer because we're all in our bubbles, right? It's not like we consume media in the way that we used to where everyone watches BBC and everyone gets the same news. So my news channels is very women's sports focused, but I mean, everybody knows like when you type in football and press enter on Google, it's going to be men's that comes up first. If I'm searching like, ⁓ Arsenal Tottenham played yesterday.
Angela (26:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (27:11)
I type into Google Arsenal Tottenham, and it's like a men's game that comes up. So no, it's certainly not equal. The budgets are not equal. So I guess I do know the answer to that question and I would say it's not equal.
Angela (27:22)
It's not
equal. But I feel like the success, particularly during the last, this summer or this year, the success that they've had is it must help push it forward because suddenly they're more in demand for adverts and media campaigns.
Mads (27:29)
and
Yeah, yeah, definitely that happens. Yeah.
Angela (27:44)
What makes a sports story worth pursuing for you? Are there any that you get offered and think, no, I'm not gonna do that?
Mads (27:54)
Yeah, the ones... So what makes a story worth pursuing is if it has real, tangible world impacts or local impact. Like if a story has a good reason or good cause behind it, like I'm such a believer that anyone who has influence should use that influence for good. I know there is a debate on whether, you know, being someone in the limelight or having a following...
Angela (28:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (28:19)
do you then have a right to be like an activist or stand for something? And there's an argument to say you should totally just be able to focus on your craft. And if your craft is football, fine. But I'm like a big humanitarian at heart and like, I want to see the world be fair and equal. And I think that people with influence, if they can use that influence for good, social good, then they can make immense change. So if I get...
campaign brought to me that is for a good cause then that really like lights me up and gets me excited. But yeah if it's like we just want to sell this product and the product is bad then it doesn't feel so great.
Angela (29:01)
No.
When you're working with some of the big names, say like Simone Biles or Lauren James, how do you build a rapport with them? Or maybe you've known Lauren for a long time.
Mads (29:12)
okay, how do I build a rapport with them? I haven't, so Lauren's been at Chelsea, she was at United, but she wasn't, I never worked with her when she was there, so I've only met her when she has been like the Lauren James, Lioness Lauren James. I think for me building like rapport with someone, it's a lot of intuition, it's like, okay.
I don't know how this person's gonna be feeling. I'll do my research beforehand so that I can understand as much as possible about them because I think it's important to understand are there, what differences, what culture, what background, where is this person at in their schedule? Are they gonna be exhausted or whatever? I just think that's basic human respect. I'm going in and I'm essentially going into your space, so how can I be the most respectful and build a environment around you that's gonna make you feel most comfortable?
So do my research beforehand, then really it's about on the day, like intuitively going in and like thinking, okay, I get to observe this person for a minute. Do they look tired? Do they look pissed off? Do they like, they're up for it? Do they like, they've got time. How can I build a crew around you that you're gonna like or connect with? Everything from like, what music do they like? I might have a little stalk of their Instagram and see what music they've been posting.
Chat to their agent, how are they feeling today? They'll obviously only share with you so much, but if you can get a chat in with their agent beforehand, or sometimes people will come with their own team, hair and makeup person for example, if you can ask them beforehand, not in a creepy way, like tell me their secrets, but just in a way of like a check-in, like do I need to know anything beforehand? And then just, yeah, feeling into it, like you would in any conversation with someone, is this person into it, are they not?
Do we just need to get this thing done and speed it up? But yeah, also just being a normal human, trying to have a chat with them. What have you been up to? A lot of the time people don't want to talk about work. So I'm, I don't think I'm ever like, oh, that game you played the other day was great. don't, I don't ever speak about stuff like that. It's more, I don't know, music or culture or thinking about things that they like. Usually people, when they talk about things they like or get them excited, it automatically gets them in a space of like,
Angela (31:04)
Yeah.
Mads (31:18)
thinking about this and ⁓ it's positive things.
Angela (31:20)
Yeah.
Do you ever ask them about photos of themselves that they like?
Mads (31:26)
Yeah, I definitely have done in the past and I try to show them photos as well as we're going and be like, do you like this? Do you like that? It's funny she mentioned Lauren James actually because she was like, I remember her saying to me like, that's a nice camera. That's a really nice, where'd you get that camera from? And showed her and then her agent was asking me like, Lauren's asking about the camera. Where do you get the camera from? So she actually...
bought one of the cameras, the little Fuji XV100. Maybe they gifted it to her, don't know. But yeah, definitely, I think it's important to have that feedback loop. Yeah.
Angela (31:57)
Nice.
Yeah.
She strikes me as someone who's immensely confident when she's playing football, she's got the ball at her feet, but she seems quite shy and reserved other times and I imagine that could be quite tricky to deal with as a photographer.
Mads (32:19)
Yeah, yeah, it's such a fascinating place working with athletes. Sometimes people will be amazing at video, amazing at interviews, and then hate still pictures. Others will be like great at kind of modeling and like throw a few angles. I think it is just like going in with a number of things in your back pocket, like do I need to tell some jokes? Can my assistant be the class clown and make people laugh?
Are you like what you know, what's your role on the pitch? Like are you the cool girl? Then let's just play into some angles or are you this like Yeah, I'm always trying to match like the direction to the person that they are but then I'm also not trying to put my perception of them and Craft it in a certain way
Angela (33:07)
It sounds like quite a juggling act.
Mads (33:09)
It is quite a juggling act. But yeah, I do quite enjoy the challenge. I do enjoy the
Angela (33:15)
Good,
good. Well, I think it's a really good time to go to six from SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers and I'd love you to answer six questions, please, by picking numbers from one to 10. So could I have your first number, Number five. Is there a story in sport you haven't had the chance to tell yet, but that you're determined to tell? That question's from Laura.
Mads (33:29)
Five.
my gosh, great question Laura. I want to tell almost every story in sport. Yes, I would love to work with an athlete directly without a major brand involved and tell their story on something that they feel really passionate about and make that really in like a really collaborative way. Like almost bring their
Angela (33:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (34:04)
story to life and the reason I really want to do that is because I think it's quite rare that an athlete gets to share their story without the influence of say this say that. ⁓
Angela (34:15)
Yeah. Do you have
a specific athlete or sport in mind?
Could be your chance to pitch.
Mads (34:25)
I might come back to you on that one. Can I come back on the podcast?
Angela (34:27)
Of course you can, yes. Okay.
All right, can I have your second number please?
Mads (34:32)
Nine.
Angela (34:34)
⁓ What would be your dream project? Several people asked that.
Mads (34:39)
What would be my dream project?
Angela (34:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (34:42)
It would be, Mads, can you come and embed yourself within this team for two to three months and create a documentary about the change that we're gonna go through?
Angela (34:58)
That sounds cool.
Mads (34:59)
And the reason I want to do that is because when you have time to spend on a project, you get to really go deep and you get to make it with people and you get to see all the nuances and you're not just like going in a really quick way and extracting you. Yeah, I think you can create something really special and of depth and of meaning and get feedback. So that would be it. And yeah, just the idea. I mean, I don't know if you have freelancers listening, but...
think half the game in the world of being a freelance photographer is like so much of your energy has to go on the winning the work, pitching the work, putting a treatment together, not getting it, going in a different direction. So the idea of just being able to fully go into like creative mode on one project, knowing that your like baseline costs are covered and you can put all your energy on the thing would yeah, be so special.
Angela (35:50)
That does sound very good. It sounds a bit like, you know, as a music photographer, if they go on tour with a band to document the tour and it's not just, you know, getting the shots of the band on stage, it's all the backstage stuff and the traveling and getting the whole story of that tour.
Mads (35:55)
Yeah.
For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela (36:05)
Sounds great.
Okay. your third number, please.
Mads (36:09)
feel like we should go low. Let's go for two.
Angela (36:13)
Number two, what has been your most satisfying project so far, either personal or commercial? And that question's from Marie-Ange.
Mads (36:27)
I've been going to the Gambia in West Africa for like over 10 years now and I go and stay with the same group of people and there's a girl there who's like a really amazing footballer called Ola who's currently playing in Russia and I've been photographing her and her community for yeah that long like 11 years and I just I love being there and creating imagery and seeing the way that
other people will also pick up the camera and go and create their own images and stories. It's probably really special to me because there's like no stakes, like I'm not doing it for a client, there's no expectations. And it feels like a place where I can just really photograph in a way that feels incredibly natural and see other people like enjoy the process of photography as well.
Angela (37:18)
And over
that length of time, you'll have seen things change and develop.
Mads (37:22)
Yeah, totally. Like the community there is changing and developing. I'm changing and developing and because I go once a year it's yeah it's a real point to be like wow I didn't know that this had changed but actually in comparison to how I felt when I was here last year this thing's different. So it wasn't really a project it was more I had a friend who was doing Djembe drumming and her drumming group in Manchester had links with a drumming group in Kotu.
Angela (37:39)
How did that project start?
Mads (37:49)
Gambia so she invited me to come over so I stayed in a very like creative musical kind of compound environment and through that like I said I've always had a camera in mind and I just photographed and felt like it was a space that really lit me up. I'm a real believer that you can feel very different in different spaces different environments and that really felt like an environment for me where I could tap into a different side of creating.
that felt really good.
Angela (38:22)
Good, sounds like you've really grasped that one. So can I have your fourth number, please?
Mads (38:28)
for.
Angela (38:30)
Number four, which project has changed you the most, either creatively or personally? That question's from Sue.
Mads (38:41)
Change with the moment.
Very big questions. ⁓ I did a season with Man United Women about three years ago and that was really special because it was the first time, similarly to the answer that I gave a couple of answers ago which was I'd like to go deeper within a project. Doing that season with United Women, it was at a time where photography, content creation, the women's game, it was starting to evolve but it still wasn't...
Angela (38:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mads (39:10)
it hadn't been fully formed and there was scope to try different things and make it your own and the girls were still at a level where I don't think they were that sick of media yet. There comes a time in every sort of famous person's life where they have to do so much of something that they just don't want to be on camera anymore but the girls kind of really wanted, really wanted and enjoyed being photographed and through that experience it just really humanised, is that the word? Yeah, humanised.
the way that they lived and sort of what they had to go through as an athlete like because I was going to their trainings and I went and did pre-season with them so I'd see yeah the mornings the training sessions the games the social time and yeah I think it just really helped me understand it stopped feeling like it was me and athlete it stopped feeling like it was me and subject and
it allowed me to kind of go more into that world and understand the nuances within it and essentially just, I guess, make me more of a genuine photographer storyteller within that. And also quite a few of the girls liked photographing and I think I love it when, again, I feel like I can share photography with people. And there's a couple of the players now who shoot themselves. In fact, one of them the other day WhatsApp me and was like, hey, I actually want a video camera now. What would you recommend? So.
Angela (40:28)
Hahaha.
Mads (40:30)
That was really nice.
Angela (40:31)
Great. So can I have your penultimate number, please?
Number
how do you
inclusivity front and centre when working on big commercial campaigns? That question is from Estelle.
Mads (40:44)
I think the early stages when you're not on set yet, but it's conversations around all the creative elements. Where are we going to shoot this? What clothes are we going to wear? What clothes are we going to style people in? Which cast are we involving? Which players are we choosing? What's the story here?
Is this just speaking to one culture? Is this through the lens of one lens? I'll talk to people about it as well who are outside of my immediate world, who have completely different professions, who are from different cultures, who'll like, hey, I'm working on this thing. Because hearing their perspective on it may unearth things that I haven't thought of before, and then I can bring that back. Yeah, so first of all, it's like the story that we're telling, what lens is that through? How can we tie in different things that's going to appeal to...
everybody or as many people as we can. And then when I'm choosing my team, keeping inclusivity front and center, it's like, okay, what is the story here? Who's going to be on set? Do we have enough differences? Because I'm a firm believer that the more differences that are in a room, the better the creative thinking is going to be, the better the decisions are going to be because you're not all coming from the same lens. You're not all.
thinking about it from one perspective, you've got this big multi-clash of differences that make something unique and representative and therefore inclusive of everybody. So yeah, the set as diverse as possible, where possible. And then in the post, wow, I mean, so many decisions have been.
made by the time you get it into post but I think always coming back to the integrity of it as well you know is this reflecting is this telling the story that we wanted it to tell have all the bits gone through in the edit that we wanted to go through I'm also kind of thinking about this from a video point of view as well where you can do a lot more in the post or you can lose a lot more in the post it's a little simpler in photography but I have also been working on a few motion projects recently yeah
Angela (42:38)
think we often think about the subject and the story being inclusive, but as you said, it's important to have diversity in the group that's creating that as well. I remember Jodie Foster actually talking about, you know, she was obviously a big advocate for getting more women into films and film production, but then when she realized she needed to employ people, employ women, employ more diverse employees, actually that meant she had to do some work.
You have to break out of your circle that you're in. Because as you say, we all live in bubbles. But if you want to pull new people in, you have to go out and find them. And then once they're in your bubble, hopefully that all sort of just makes your bubble bigger so you can pull more people in.
Mads (43:19)
Yeah, totally. I think it used to really scare me in my earlier years of a career, like going outside of my network, because there's so much unknown when you're going onto a set. There's so much unknown, especially when you're working with talent. You don't know how much time you're to get with them. You don't know what mood they're going to be in. So to make sure that you have a crew around you that you fully trust is like so important. So when I first started to get asked like, Oh, can we bring these people on set or like...
Can we have more women in the crew? When I was doing a women only shoot for a sports brand, it kind of rattled me to be like, oh my God, but like all my, like I know these, like my Digi's a guy and my main lighting guy is a guy and I love them and I know them and I don't want to have to replace them. And it's not that I was replacing them. I still work with people that I've worked with from day one, but I realized that in like opening up your circle and opening up your mind, like you'll meet so many amazing people and they'll challenge your thoughts and they'll open your mind. And now like, now I love it. Even if I have,
Like I did a video shoot on Friday and I was like, oh, I have a first AD that I want to work with, but my DP was like, I've got a load of firsts that I think would be amazing for this. And I'm like, amazing, I want to meet them. And I did, we had this great first who I never knew existed and she was brilliant. And now, you know, she's part of my network. So I really, yeah, I really like thrive and buzz off meeting people, new people and bringing them in. Yeah, embracing it.
Angela (44:41)
Fantastic.
Great. All right, so your last number, please.
Mads (44:48)
Is 10 a number? Is it 1 to 10?
Angela (44:49)
Yep,
one to ten, so number ten. It's a good one to finish on. What advice would you give women photographers who want to tell stories that spark change? And again, several people asked that.
Mads (45:01)
I would say, like, go find your story and go find everything out about it that you can and then maybe go and find some people who also share that opinion so that you kind of can add fuel to your fire and then maybe go and have a chat with people who have the opposite view so that you can figure out, do you have any blind spots? How are you gonna create a story that doesn't just represent your point of view but perhaps has other point of views?
in it because you might find out things you didn't already know or you might just, it might just really confirm the importance of why you need to tell this story. So I think research is really important and yeah, finding people that can be your allies, like go on that journey with you because if you're doing a personal project especially, it can be very easy to neglect that or let paid work come in the way and you kind of leave it by the wayside. But if you have got allies on your side, these are the people that are going to be checking in with you.
And these are the people that are gonna make you feel like it's really important. So yeah, I think strengthening your why and finding a bit of a team and then yeah, go on and make it happen.
Angela (46:09)
Great advice. Thanks very much. Well, Mads, thanks so much for joining me today. It's been really brilliant hearing from you.
Mads (46:15)
Thanks so much for having me on. hope I waffle too much.
Angela (46:18)
Not
at all, it's been great. Thank you very much. Bye
Mads (46:20)
Thank you so much.
Angela (46:22)
Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everybody who sent in a question. You'll find links to Madeleine's social media channels and website in the show notes.
